CITY OF LA HABRA HEIGHTS
STUDY SESSION: NEW FIRE STATION/CITY HALL
MAY 1, 2007
1. CALL MEETING TO ORDER
Mayor Bergman called the Study Session of May 1, 2007 to order at 6:44 p.m. at the La Habra Heights Community Center, La Habra Heights, California.
2. ROLL CALL
Present: Mayor Brian Bergman, Mayor Pro Tem Stan Carroll, Council Members: Layne Baroldi, Tela Millsap and Howard Vipperman.
Also Present: City Manager Ronald Bates, Fire Chief John Nielsen, Community Development Director Justin Powers, City Engineer Majdi Ataya and Consultant Kelley Needham.
3. FLAG SALUTE
Mayor Pro Tem Carroll led the flag salute.
4. INTRODUCTION TO STUDY SESSION: MAYOR BRIAN BERGMAN
Mayor Bergman stated that tonightÕs meeting is for information gathering and on May 31st, we will have another meeting for answers to the questions submitted.
Donnette Waters, Citrus Street, stated that she was not in favor of replacing our Fire Department with Los Angeles County, but was of the opinion that it would be cheaper to build a Fire Station at The Park or Hacienda and West and we need to move ahead. Ms. Waters stated that she had prepared questions to hand in.
Vanetta Ramm, Le Flore Drive, stated that the consensus of the people she has spoken with is to move quickly, choose an inexpensive site, and build an efficient station. She stated that in her opinion the current site is too small and it would be too expensive to build here. She stated that the Hacienda/West site would be fine, but her favorite site is the North area at The Park; however it was not given a fair evaluation. It has many pluses and if all of the City offices were there, it would save on maintenance and the Park Building would have better oversight. This would not hinder other uses of The Park. This will also give us the most benefit for our money. She asked the Council to consider this.
Judy Hathaway Francis, stated that we need to provide adequate fire protection to all residents before we consider a New City Hall. Ms. Francis spoke of her concern that the Fire Department is not providing adequate protection for the entire City. The current firefighters do not have the same concern and commitment for our City that the resident volunteers had. There is too little public information about our Fire Department functioning ability. The ISO report pointed out areas of concern. We need more information about the Fire Department revenue and expenses. There should be a Resident/Council Committee to review these items. How much of our Fire Fund is allocated to Fire and how much to City Administration? The ISO report was critical of the Fire Department record keeping. How are their files backed up in case the computer records are lost? She also stated her concern about the Fire Academy. She noted that our fire prevention has deteriorated. Ms. Francis asked the Council to review all Fire Department records.
Roy Francis, stated that the Council should educate themselves about Fire Department issues. Ask questions so you donÕt have to always rely on Staff recommendations. Mr. Francis asked if the residents would be able to ask questions of the experts at the meeting on May 31st. He stated that he has submitted questions in writing to the Council. We should have an analysis and bid from L.A. County to provide Fire service for our City. We have over 100 signatures requesting this.
Paul Carey, stated that he voted for the two new Councilmembers and is in favor of the Fire Station at the current site. We still should consider all factors of the Hacienda/West Road site. He did not favor The Park site. Mr. Carey asked how many homes are served going north from the station and how many served by going south. Would the response routes be changed on any of these homes if the site were changed to West and Hacienda? Can a color-coded map be provided of the current pre-planned response routes to specific City areas before the May 31st meeting? Can it be displayed at all City meetings, our website and released to the Heights Life and La Habra Journal for possible publication? Mr. Carey mentioned that at the present site, the engines exit on a two-lane road going north and on a 4-lane road going south. At the Hacienda/West Road site, the engines would exit on a two-lane road in both directions. The two-lane area will affect the response time in one way or another no matter which site is selected. It would help to get traffic lights stopped when the Fire Department leaves on a call with lights and sirens. Will a new traffic signal be added at Avocado Crest and Hacienda? This would help several problems.
Mr. Carey stated that Lenore has given her time to him and he would read her questions. She asks how much a new Fire Station would add to the tax bill which already has the fire fee and a trauma charge, and what will be charged if we have to use the services? What is charged for the same services in La Habra? If we contract with L.A. County would we still have to pay the Fire Fee, Trauma tax and Emergency Service tax? What is the fair market value of our current site, including buildings? How would that be derived and the same questions on the Hacienda/West site?
0:20:04
Daniel Gross, Dorothea Road, stated that he is a resident Fire Captain in the City. He explained that the last ISO rating was probably misleading as it stated that we had five (5) staffed fire stations. This is not true. We had some residents that would go to an engine when there was a call, but they were never fully staffed. He stated that the City has excellent fire service now and does not think we should go to L.A. County service. We will soon have Automatic Aid, which will make service even better. Mr. Gross stated that we have an average six (6) minute response time. This includes non-emergency response times. We still have 4-6 resident firefighters. His opinion was that the Hacienda/West site would be the best. He stated that to rent temporary facilities for this site during construction could cost from $3,000 to $5,000 per month. Mr. Gross stated that the firefighters are Firefighter 1 trained and are highly dedicated and motivated. He stated that the Fire Chief has brought great improvement to the Department.
Ed Borrowe, Reposado Road, asked that the Council consider doing no more than replacing the dormitory and covering the equipment and with the money saved, consider a small East and West side station. If we bulldoze some of the buildings here and rebuild, it costs considerably more. The residents want the Fire Department here, so consider the numbers to replace the dormitory and seriously analyze the cost for that on this site. Mr. Borrowe stated that moving to the Hacienda/West site would increase the response time to East and West areas.
Karen Vipperman, stated that the cost at finish of a project is always considerably more than expected. How can we afford that? Kelly built a station of over 9,300 square feet in San Clemente on .38 acre. Why couldnÕt he build a 10,000 square foot station on this site that is 1.77 acres? The most important consideration is the safety of the people in this City. We also need to consider response time and build what we can afford. She stated that the only experts we are going to be able to ask questions of are the ones who are trying to convince us that it be built at the site the Council voted for, while the residents asked for the station to be at the present site. We do not have Automatic Aid yet.
George Edwardz, stated that the Fire Chief does not want any more resident firemen. Mr. Edwardz spoke in favor of the City Hall Complex staying at the current site. He stated that it was the City Manager and the previous City Council who has delayed the building of decent facilities. Mr. Edwardz stated that part of the Fire Service Funds is being used to pay the City Manager. Our Fire Service has regressed according to the ISO report and he is opposed to a New City Hall.
Nancy Acocks, asked if the City doesnÕt go with L.A. County Fire, that the CEQA analysis be done before any site selection or any more City money is paid out. Ms. Acocks asked which Fire Departments around us listed by the Fire Chief have paramedics. Will we be able to get objective answers from the consultant about the two site locations? Will the Council consider having other Architects at the May 31st meeting? Would the Council direct Staff to enforce our City Code requiring legible house numbers on every home/driveway? Ms. Acocks suggested the training academy and anything not directly connected with the Fire Department could be separate from the Fire Station. It probably would not have to adhere to the strict safety building requirements for the Fire Station and this could possibly save money. Get a detailed report on what it would cost to have Fire Service/Paramedics from L.A. County. Will the Council direct Staff and a committee to research the applicability of our current second units or guest houses to fulfill our RHNA requirements, so this property will not be needed for that?
Bob Harencame, East Road, stated that we have not been given the total amount that the project will cost, how much has been spent, or how we will finance it, so it is hard to tell what we can afford. We need to have clear and honest answers to this. The residents should vote on this.
Mayor Bergman explained that the City would continue to accept questions up to May 4th.
0:56:24
Norm Zezula, explained that those who opposed the Hacienda/West site did so out of honest opinions, not politics. Everyone agrees that the Fire Department needs better living quarters. Mr. Zezula explained that he did disagree with the site change and adding the City Hall Complex to it. If we had stayed with our original proposal, the firemen would already be in their new quarters. The experts have continually contradicted each other over the years. Mr. Zezula stated that he has found several errors in the reports. Expert opinions are helpful, but should not be blindly accepted and followed. He stated the importance of items going to the vote of the people. Mr. Zezula asked if The Park or Hacienda/West is decided upon, would the road have to be widened for safe egress from the Station. What other road modifications would be necessary or recommended? He stated that he would turn in more questions.
Cecelia Borrowe, stated her approval of resident firemen. She felt that they would naturally have more concern for their City. She stated that she does not feel sure about the information that is given to the residents. Ms. Borrowe stated that she has reviewed many reports that have come to the Council from the experts, and there is always a ÒdisclaimerÓ clause in the reports, stating that they cannot be held responsible. She stated that in her opinion, they had been asked for the opinion they gave before they made their report. You cannot please all of the residents. Everyone has to get involved. Ms. Borrowe stated that we need to value what we have and take care of it. This attitude should come from the leadership. This needs to change for the future of the City.
Scott Jones, Virazon Road, stated that he had been a resident volunteer fireman for 23 years. He stated that he would like to see how they could get the quickest response for the whole community and we need to get the questions answered from the residents to know the best way to do that. We need to see what the different options are, and what they will cost, in order to make informed decisions. He expressed his concern about the possibility of conflagration fire in our area.
Stephen Blagden, Citron Road, stated that The Park building is a money pit without much return. What would it cost to turn it into a City Hall? Mr. Blagden stated that if the site chosen were Hacienda/West, the response time would actually be better when going north. He suggested that if the traffic lights are equipped with the ability to be turned red at each end of the City, by the flip of a switch, traffic would be cleared in four (4) minutes. Mr. Blagden suggested a Fire Committee of residents be re-instituted. He was of the opinion that the Volunteer Fire Department and Academy give us great service at a very low price. Mr. Blagden stated that with L.A. County Fire, it looks like we would pay more for less service, or pay 3-4 times more for what we now have. He stated that requesting a formal quote from L.A. County Fire Department would be a vote of no confidence in the Fire Department and could cause the College to pull the contract for the Academy.
Trish Caywood, Churchill Road, stated that she did not approve trying to fit the construction into the small present site. She stated that the existing City Hall was not designed for that purpose and does not reflect well on the Community. City Hall would need frequent repair and eventual replacement. Ms. Caywood stated that what is needed is a new Fire Station and a small City Hall. She asked that the pros and cons of the different sites and the information on response times from them be mailed to all of the residents. Let the people vote on the site.
Faith Grimm, Las Palomas, commented that two reasons were given that the present site will not work: it is too small, and the State mandated housing needs. It has been shown that the Fire Station and a New City Hall with 50 or 60 parking spaces can be built on this space. Ms. Grimm asked questions about the value of the land to satisfy the State mandated housing numbers. We need to know the cost of fire protection from the County and what they would require of us for that protection. She was of the opinion that we should rebuild our own Fire Department.
Will Slattery, stated that he submitted questions that would apply at any site. He asked if any of the proposed developments meet the requirements for ÒgreenÓ buildings and are there grants for part of this. What would the maintenance costs be and the longevity of the buildings? The sites should be analyzed first before picking one.
Mayor Bergman stated that the City would be accepting questions through May 4th. Mayor Bergman turned the meeting over to Staff to answer some of the questions.
1:35:25
6. STAFF RESPONSE TO PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS
City Manager Bates stated that in response to the direction of two members of the Council, we asked L.A. County for an informal bid to serve as our Fire Department, as a formal bid would cost $3500. He stated that he felt that the cost would be enough higher, that the community would recognize the benefit of the quality Fire Department that we currently have. He stated that this is a very unique Fire Department. The difference will probably be close to $1500 per parcel per year. The Automatic Aid Agreement will be on the next meeting Agenda. He explained the process that would be followed if the Council approves the agreement. One of the greatest strengths of our Fire Department is their brush fire fighting capability.
Fire Chief Nielsen explained the difference between Mutual Aid, that we already have, and Automatic Aid that we are moving toward with L.A. County.
City Manager Bates noted that at budget time the Council will discuss possible ways that the residents can have some sort of insurance to cover any use they have of the paramedics, such as a subscription. The paramedic fee we pay is to have the service available, and if you use the paramedics, there is an extra fee. Mr. Bates explained that the Trauma tax on our tax bills is a County tax for the hospital trauma departments. Mr. Bates also explained that about 6% of the City overhead is charged to the Fire Department for time spent on Fire Department issues.
City Manager Bates explained that he had estimated the charge for L.A. County to take over our Fire Department service at $2 million. Two of the Councilmembers asked if he was comfortable with his estimate, so he asked for an informal bid which came back as $4.1 million. The County has the option not to give us a formal bid.
Councilmember Baroldi asked if Mr. Bates was concerned that even the informal bid could be considered a vote of no confidence.
Fire Chief Nielsen stated that he hopes that the Automatic Aid Agreement will be effective by July 1st. He assured everyone that the City would not be left unprotected due to any service to another area.
Councilmember Vipperman stated that he was looking forward to seeing what the bid amount is from L.A. County. He asked how much money do we really have and how much Fire Station can we really afford? We still owe money on the Hacienda/West site. Councilmember Vipperman stated that with what we have already been told, it totals $9.1 million.
City Manager Bates stated that the Council has not specifically told him what they want in the Fire Station. The Council has told him that they want the most cost-effective station possible. To do that we will probably have to go with some type of a metal, ÔButlerÕ type of building which can be made to look attractive and useable, and will last for 50 years. We have about $3.7 million available and a borrowing capacity of $3 million, totaling $6.7 million of capacity for building. Whichever site is selected, we will have the cost of remediating the site plus the cost of the basic Fire Station. We only have to build a City Hall if we want to. City Manager Bates stated that he would get back with the figures on how much is still owed on the Hacienda/West Road site.
Councilmember Vipperman continued his analysis of the costs.
Consultant Kelley Needham explained that their figure of $450 a square foot includes all the site improvements, but would not include the remediation or the street improvement.
City Engineer Majdi Ataya stated that a deceleration lane would have to be about 150 feet and would cost about $80,000. Preemption equipment to synchronize the traffic Signal would cost $35,000 to $50,000.
Councilmember Vipperman stated that according to his figures, this leaves us $5.8 million and that is what we should tell Kelley to work towards.
City Manager Bates stated that if that is what the Council wants, that is what he will work towards, but he would rather take a look at the overall project at the site and work with people who do the work and try to get the cost down as low as we can.
Councilmember Baroldi asked if Kelley could give us a cost-effective solution at the present site.
2:15:44
Consultant Needham listed the problems that we would be up against at this site as to space and codes. He stated that the grades have to be considered also and the biggest problem is the size. If we keep cutting the size of the Fire Department, we can get it on the site, but there will be ways it wonÕt be adequate. The turning ratio is very tight.
Councilmember Baroldi asked if it were feasible to have the engines back in or out.
Consultant Needham stated that it was possible but most Fire Departments try to avoid it.
Councilmember Carroll asked what size the station would have to be to make it fit on the current site.
Consultant Needham stated that some of the drawings have cut the number and the size of the bays down, but the bays have to be from 72-78 feet wide and you need at least three (3) bays. We do have to stay between 10-20 feet from the blue-line stream just to do the earthwork.
Councilmember Carroll asked Mr. Needham to bring back information on how much of a station we can put on this site now, and what it would cost for the City to acquire 1/3 acre of the school property and determine how much that would change what you could do on this site for the Fire Station and the City offices. We need some specific numbers to compare with the other site.
Councilmember Vipperman asked for an actual bid on the demolition of the Multi-Purpose room and any remediation of the soil along with any other cost.
Mayor Bergman asked if there would be any savings to make a separate building for the academy classroom.
Chief Nielsen stated that he did not see any savings in that. He stated that they would always need a classroom. The Planning Commission and Parks and Recreation Committee sometimes use our classroom when they canÕt use the Multi-Purpose room. We also sometimes have the Red Cross use our meeting room.
Consultant Needham stated that building a separate building would use up money saved by not having to remediate the ground under an attached meeting room.
2:27:36
Chief Nielsen explained that he is not against resident firefighters, but they do need to meet the requirements like any other firefighter. The residents need the best service they can get. Mr. Nielsen noted that he has 8 resident firefighters in the City, 3 paramedics live in the City, 3 Captains, a Division Chief, and a Deputy Chief. Chief Nielsen stated that he has 28 Captains that work for other Fire Departments and they have been here from 5 to 27 years. The Firemen care about the residents. He stated that after we get a decent place for our Firemen to live we could talk about substations.
Councilmember Carroll asked for confirmation that Staff will look at the true figures for Hacienda/West for everything and bring them back.
Council Member Baroldi asked for data about the Automatic Aid Agreement.
City Manager Bates explained that if the Council approves the Automatic Aid Agreement, this would authorize Chief Nielsen and the Chief of L.A. County from their experience to determine the reciprocal agreement. L.A. County has a lot of experience in doing this. A formal bid from L.A. County for them to take over our Fire Department will take 60-120 days. You will have to decide what services you want included in the bid.
The Council discussed whether to ask for a formal appraisal for the current site and the Hacienda/West site.
Two of the Council asked that discussion of an appraisal of the sites be placed on the Agenda.
CITY COUNCIL COMMENTS
Mayor Bergman thanked the public for coming and the good questions presented. He opened the meeting for a few more Public Comments.
Roy Francis stated that in 1996 we were not surrounded by L.A. County, but now the City is surrounded by L.A. County Fire Departments. He stated that he is of the opinion that there could be creative ways to use the L.A. County Fire Department services and we need to look at the issue very carefully.
The next speaker commented that most of the City thinks the Fire Department is doing a good job. We just want documentation of what it will cost and where it will be cost effective so we can decide what to do.
Will Slattery asked if the south park site would be reviewed in detail, or not.
Consultant Needham explained that probably the biggest drawback to the plan is that it has a ÒVeeÓ in the middle, which would be difficult for the Fire Department. Anything built underground will eventually begin to leak. The construction cost would be quite a bit higher and you would run into many difficulties.
Mr. Slatterly noted that the area has not been tested and we donÕt know if it would need the same remediation as the other sites.
City Manager Bates stated that right now they are only looking at three sites: Hacienda/West, The Park parking lot and the current site.
George Edwardz, suggested with the Automatic Aid Agreement, we might not have to build a big Fire Department. There is only one exposed engine at present. Why would L.A. County want to give us free Automatic Aid when they can get us to pay for them to take over our Fire Service?
City Manager Bates explained that Automatic Aid is not free service; it is an exchange of services.
Sandy Dykier, stated that the horses at The Park would be very aware of anything happening underground and would panic over that rather than a siren or flashing lights.
ADJOURNMENT
Mayor Bergman adjourned the Study Session at 9:14 p.m.
ATTEST:
______________________________________
Ronald Bates, City Clerk
ATTEST:
______________________________
Ronald Bates, City Clerk