CITY OF LA HABRA HEIGHTS CITY COUNCIL

 

SPECIAL MEETING AND STUDY SESSION:

 

NEW FIRE STATION/CITY HALL

 

MAY 31, 2007

 

 

OPENING CEREMONIES

 

1.              CALL MEETING TO ORDER

 

Mayor Bergman called the Study Session of May 31, 2007 to order at 6:45 p.m. at the La Habra Heights Community Center, La Habra Heights, California.

 

2.              ROLL CALL

 

Present: Mayor Brian Bergman, Mayor Pro Tem Stan Carroll, and Councilmembers: Layne Baroldi, Tela Millsap and Howard Vipperman.

 

Also Present: City Attorney Sandra Levin, City Manager Ronald Bates, Fire Chief John Nielsen, Community Development Director Justin Powers, City Engineer Majdi Ataya, and Consultant Kelly Needham,

 

3.              FLAG SALUTE

 

Councilmember Millsap led the flag salute.

 

4.              STUDY SESSION REGARDING PROPOSED NEW FIRE STATION AND CITY HALL

 

a.     INTRODUCTION BY MAYOR BRIAN BERGMAN

 

Mayor Bergman stated that if you wish to speak, fill out a card. There will not be any time for someone to speak twice and we will limit the time to five minutes.

 

b.     STAFF PRESENTATION AND RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

 

City Manager Bates stated that they will try to answer the questions that were asked by the residents. We will try to focus on key issues that have come up in the last few months. We will have City Engineer Ataya address access to a facility at the present location; City Attorney Levin will address some of the legal issues related to a facility and issues of an underground facility; Kelly Needham, from WLC, will address some of the issues with placing a facility on the present site and some of the challenges that are presented; I will then sum up with the cost issues.

 

City Engineer Ataya stated that allowing access through the side would eliminate parking, so the suggestion was to have the engines back into their stalls. The first concern is the volume of the traffic on Hacienda Road. The next concern is the speed. The nearby “S” curve causes a sight-distance concern. There are only two lanes at this point and special permission would be required from a different jurisdiction to place a light there. Motorists do not expect a large apparatus to stop in the middle of the street so they can back into a driveway. You can’t depend on the time of day the engines will be going out.

 

Councilmember Vipperman stated that he would like to see the radar unit set up at the “S” curve to check the speed there.

 

City Manager Bates noted that the turning radius used for moving the engines around is also used as a training area for the Academy.

 

City Attorney Levin stated that there are not many issues that are controlled by hard and fast legal requirements. There will be consultants giving their view of what they are willing to sign off on. Most of the issues can be settled by spending more money or being willing to take more risk. Ms. Levin stated that although the underground plan is attractive in some areas, there are cost constraints that are significant in dealing with underground facilities. The rule of thumb is that it will be three times the cost. We also have a blue-line stream that causes further constraints. There are other problems that would have to be considered and dealt with that would cost more. We have not been able to find a Fire Station that has been built in that manner before so it would be untested and if anything goes wrong you would have a little more exposure.

 

Kelly Needham, WLC consultant, stated that he again looked at the present site and he showed power point drawings of different designs and stated the pros and cons of each one. He noted that the parking and slope of the area has to be considered in whatever you do.

 

City Manager Bates read an article on the City of Mission Viejo and their RHNA housing numbers, making the point that the numbers are real and cities can be sued if they don’t follow the rules. He noted that we would be working with a Consultant to suggest the best way to meet our numbers. Mr. Bates explained that Senior Housing would generate fewer trips per day than other housing might, so we would want to try for that. There are many options for dividing the different types of housing.

 

Mr. Bates stated that we had received an E-mail with an informal quote of what LA County would charge to supply us with one engine, four firemen and two paramedics. We now have this quote on County stationary, signed by Captain Freeman for a total of $4.1 million. This doesn’t cover much of the services we now have. We did have a meeting with Chief Freeman and it was clear that the bid was what the quoted level of service would cost.

 

Councilmember Vipperman stated that Captain Freeman noted that if the County Board of Supervisors decides to honor our request they will run a survey of our fire needs and paramedic needs and then give us a legitimate quote.

 

City Manager Bates presented a plan which involved .33 acres of extra property from the Christian school area. This would make the current site more useable. The school stated that they would be happier to sell the whole site to us rather than the .33 acres we asked about. Mr. Bates stated that this would cost approximately $1.2 million dollars to ready the site for construction. Mr. Bates presented approximate costs to ready each site option for construction and stated that depending on the decision on what design was decided on, it would cost between $250 and $460 per square foot. The total estimated cost of the current site was the largest cost, with The Park as the lowest cost. Mr. Bates listed the key issues for decision making for each option.

 

The Council and Staff discussed the possibility that other property costs should have been included in the option totals. Considerable discussion continued on the different options for the current site.

 

Mayor Bergman opened the meeting for Public Comment and noted that the time for each person would be limited to 5 minutes.

 

1:42:53

 

c.     PUBLIC COMMENTS

 

Norm Zezula stated that he would have liked specific references to where in the Code it says that we should have 80 parking places for a Fire Station/City Hall complex at the present site. Why do we suddenly have to follow commercial rules and increase our parking by 400%? When asked how much parking we would lose at The Park if we built the Fire Station there, the answer was that we would just lose the upper parking lot but we could make more parking elsewhere. Mr. Zezula stated that another answer notes that there should be no effect on programs at The Park. This cannot be true, as the people are already parking all over the grass at the Avocado Festival because there are not enough spaces. Building in the upper parking lot would take away 30 parking spaces. Staff answered another question saying that the issues were too complex and extensive for the residents to vote on and it is best left to the Council, City Manager Bates and the experts they hire. He mentioned several suggestions by experts to our City that have proved wrong for us, such as that we shouldn’t become a City since we don’t have businesses. We should have a vote by the people.

 

Kathy Kingett asked for clarification of what is meant by “along the sewers”.

 

City Manager Bates explained exactly where there were sewers in our City.

 

Kathy Kingett stated that looking at the long term vision; the current site is just too tight. We don’t want stopgap solutions and the Fire Station condition is urgent. The City Hall can come later. She stated that she is interested in what she will have to pay from now on as a taxpayer. She stated that she would prefer to leave The Park alone. She preferred the Hacienda site for the Fire Station. She stated that we have to have the plan for our State Housing Mandate. We need to consider the site for that and for the Fire Department.

 

Venetta Ramm spoke in favor of building the Fire Department at the north parking lot of The Park as the least expensive option; it would be more centrally located, bring more vitality to our underused park and would be an adequate size. She stated that with the money saved we could build another station on the East side. There is already a building at the Christian Church on Harbor Blvd. Ms. Ramm was of the opinion that space lost at The Park could easily be replaced by land we already own at no cost.

 

Bill Hinz commented that he is against having LA County take over our Fire Department. His opinion was that this would increase our cost considerably. He stated that he has been favorably impressed by the dedication and sincerity of the present firemen we have. He felt local control has to be best.

 

1:59:42

 

Judy Hathaway Francis stated that she found the spreadsheet was very hard to follow. She felt it was vague and had incomplete answers. She stated that she was against the Fire Department at The Park and stated that being in the middle of the City would impact 2/3 of the Residents. We should not count on Automatic Aid before we receive the MOU. Emergency and Fire Protection should be our top priority. Ms. Francis stated that she did not think all of the City Manager’s decisions have been wise on how to spend the money. She felt that the Fire Department does not have sufficiently trained firemen, management or sufficient fire fighting equipment according to the ISO report. We need to just fix the current dorm or purchase a new one. We need all of the facts. She questioned what the Fire Marshall does for his salary. No building should start until we have received an evaluation of what we need from LA County, and this could take some time. Ms. Francis asked why the City Manager did not follow the request for the LA County proposal by following standard Contract City County procedure, instead requesting an informal e-mail request for an estimate from a Deputy Chief. We all need to work together.

 

Councilmember Millsap asked if we have asked the Board of Supervisors for a quote.

 

City Manager Bates stated that they prepared a letter after the May 10 City Council meeting to Chief Freeman, requesting that LA County give us a proposal. They gave us an official letter of the informal proposal.

 

Councilmember Vipperman noted that they have to see if the Board of Supervisors will go ahead with a formal quote as we requested.

 

Fire Chief Nielsen stated that Chief Freeman and his staff are deciding whether to present this to the Board of Supervisors. That is up to Chief Freeman and his Staff.

 

City Manager Bates stated that in his opinion Chief Freeman is reluctant to get involved in the process and realizes that he cannot get close to giving us the service we have for anywhere near what we are paying now.

 

 

 

Karen Vipperman stated that she was unhappy with several answers to questions. She also thought many of the answers were misleading. She mentioned that a proposal takes time to be looked into and once it is provided, then negotiations can start on details. She noted that we were not allowed to have more than one expert (Mr. Needham). We need to save some money to pay those who help us when we have a bad wildfire, which is very possible. She suggested just the dormitory for now. Ms.Vipperman mentioned the housing numbers and that City Manager Bates does not seem to share our vision for the future as those who cherish our rural lifestyle.

 

Roy Francis thanked Mayor Bergman and the Council for allowing the opportunity to discuss these safety issues. He stated that the community as a whole expects equal service from the Fire Department and this is not happening now. The cost estimate received by Mr. Bates did not provide a detailed study that should be asked for. He stated in his opinion he was looking for a scare tactic with the informal bid. Mr. Francis asked if the letter was sent out as directed by the Council at the May 10 City Council meeting. We also have a petition for this formal proposal for the cost of LA County to provide fire service to us. He noted that he often was asked the question of “who is running the City”, the City Manager or the Council they voted for. He asked the City Council to lead and he provided the petition with 200 signatures. He also asked that they leave The Park alone.

 

Deborah Jones stated that question 6 asked about a formal quote for LA County fire service. The answer was that we have a formal proposal from LA County for $4.1 million for one engine and one paramedic squad. Council asked you to request a full and complete survey for the cost of $3500 to the LA Fire Department for complete services. Why does Council continue to push for a New City Hall when the residents don’t want it? She stated that the City Hall shouldn’t be built on the back of the Fire Station. Our concern should be the protection of the residents. If all facts for all options and sites had been laid out without bias in a clear and understandable format with all completed costs, we wouldn’t be standing here now. Anything of this magnitude should be addressed by all citizens with a vote.

 

Ron Phillips stated that now a State law has been passed that the voters must approve any new fee or tax and any existing one must have a sunset clause. That is why the Fire Fee and the Roads Maintenance District Fee has to be voted on every five years. The City claims that they can build the Fire Station and the City Hall with no further increase of taxes. He further stated that fire safety taxes are also being used to pay some salaries of City Employees. It is time to vote for no New City Hall by rejecting the proposed Roads Maintenance District 4 and force the City to use its considerable new sources of revenue to fund vital City Services of Police, Fire and Roads Maintenance. He urged the Council to affirm their commitment and responsibility to this Community to provide the vitally necessary services of Police, Fire and Roads Maintenance.

 

George Edwards stated that in his opinion we don’t need a large Fire Department with a lot of equipment since we have Automatic Aid with the Cities around us. He stated that the people are opposed to a New City Hall. The New City Hall will not increase our safety. Mr. Edwards suggested the residents vote “no” on the Roads Tax for at least one year to impress on the City Council that we don’t want to pay tax money for the roads repair so the City can build a New City Hall. The City has almost enough money that they are carrying over, to pay for Roads District 4. Mr. Edwards stated that the City Manager is not representing the community. He questioned if Mr. Bates is negotiating with AERA for one solution to our RHNA housing.

 

Stephen Blagden, Citron Road, stated that residents might look at the tapes of the Town Hall meetings, minutes and staff reports to see all of the details of finances that were gone into. This is the most expensive site and The Park is the least expensive. Mr. Blagden noted that the City Manager is a very hard worker and tries to follow the direction of the Council. Mr. Blagden explained that La Habra does not have four fire stations, because not one of those is full service and cannot be used to compare the cost for our Fire Department. He stated that the informal quote has been confirmed and Chief Freeman stated that additional services could be provided at additional cost. It should be unneeded to wait for and pay for a formal quote from the Board of Supervisors. There is a County Public Works Planning Map of La Habra Heights that shows a Fire Department at the center of The Park on Hacienda Road. Second units are more of a threat to the City than building Senior Housing here. We wouldn’t have to build all 79 here. He stated that we wouldn’t have to force the school to sell, just rezone the property.

 

Ginger Skinner stated that her biggest concern was response time for the whole community. One answer stated that if the Fire Department was moved from the current site, 30% of the residents would have a slower response. Do something to make the response time even for everyone. She was opposed to The Park site and felt that we probably should have one or two substations. The City probably will not grow much, so we do not need a bigger Fire Department. Ms. Skinner suggested buying the whole school to use temporarily and sell it to a contractor for the low income housing. Ms. Skinner asked that the Council consider a subscription insurance system for paramedic service to the residents.

 

Mayor Bergman commented that they are looking into the subscription service.

 

Scott Jones, Virazon Drive, stated that he had been both a volunteer fireman and a professional one so he understands the problems facing the Fire Chief and the risks of fires in our City. He asked that they not rush the decision on the Fire Station and consider a quote from LA County as they would as if hiring a consultant. We could get good information from this and this is how we worked out the Sheriff’s service. He suggested surveys first, Automatic Aid and then where the Fire Department should be placed.

 

Roy Cummings stated that the people who have moved into La Habra Heights and are dissatisfied with the Fire Service should have considered it before they moved into town. He stated that the Sheriff coverage was very good. Mr. Cummings questioned how hard it would be for engines to come out of The Park onto a two lane road at 4:00 p.m.?

 

2:54:50

 

 

 

 

 

Will Slattery mentioned his concerns about how the questions were handled. He stated that he submitted 61 questions: 12 were answered, 61 were not answered adequately, 4 were misrepresented and 3 were skipped altogether. Mr. Slattery mentioned several concerns the City Attorney had about the underground South Park option he has submitted. Mr. Slattery cited information on an underground building in Kansas City which is in a similar seismic area and mentioned a portion of the Hacienda Golf Club building with this type of construction that is underground. He stated that 3 times the normal cost is not accurate for an underground building. He stated that his plan needs more information and fine tuning. Mr. Slattery compared the cost of the South Park site and the cost of the current site. He stated that he received estimates and designs for relocating the horse arena, announcers booth, sidewalk and corral to the Hacienda/West site if wanted, for $500,000.

 

Mayor Bergman announced that they had to change the tape at 9:47 p.m. and reconvened at 10:07 p.m.

 

Janice Slattery asked that part of her time go to Will so he could finish what he had been saying.

 

Will Slattery stated his opinion that his South Park design has more merit than Staff has led the public to believe. Staff has not provided any numbers for it to compare with other options. Please consider it for further review and include it in all further studies. We need real numbers for the Council to make a decision.

 

Janice Slattery stated that she does not think the South Park option has been given fair consideration. She stated that she was happy to live in La Habra Heights and did not like to see divisions among the people.

 

Sandy Dykier explained that the horses would not be disturbed by noise of the Fire Engines, but would be very frightened of the underground vibrations. She was not in favor of any Fire Station being built at The Park. She also explained that the sidewalk built to the arena was too steep for anyone in a wheelchair and the sidewalk drops off steeply on the sides.

 

3:10:00

d.     CITY COUNCIL COMMENTS AND DISCUSSION

 

Mayor Bergman turned the meeting over to Staff for comments.

 

City Attorney Levin stated that she would clarify some items that came up during the study session. One item that came up was if the City Manager invited the City Council to the meeting with Fire Captain Freeman. She explained that the City Council sets policy and directs Staff and Staff implements and directs Administration. This was an Administrative Meeting. The whole Council could not go to an administrative meeting as it would have been in violation of the Brown Act. Two members could and did go to the meeting.

 

The City Attorney clarified that Kelly Needham was selected after considerable deliberation by the City Council, mostly because of his experience in building Fire Stations.

Ms. Levin also clarified that the building of the Fire Station is not contingent with the building of the City Hall. She also noted that the City Hall in the plans is not increased in size from what we now have. She also clarified that LA County Fire can provide all the services we now have, but the quote we have does not cover all services for the $4.1 million dollars.

 

Mayor Pro Tem Carroll asked what Mr. Needham still needs to accurately place the Fire Department/City Hall on the current site.

 

Mr. Needham replied that he still needs a Topographic Survey, which will cost $10,000- $15,000. It has been done at the Hacienda/West site and we would also need a Geotechnical Survey later if this site is decided on.

 

City Manager Bates stated that we would need to look at the blue-line stream to see how close we can go to it.

 

CDD Powers stated that they need a jurisdictional boundary to identify where to place the buildings and parking.

 

Mr. Needham stated that he thought the majority of the needed information could come from the Topographical Report.

 

Mayor Pro Tem Carroll asked if there was Council consensus tonight, could we ask for a survey to go forward or would it have to be agendized.

 

City Attorney Levin stated that the Topographical Survey could not be approved tonight even if there is a consensus. She explained that these costs are not within Staff’s budget authority, so it would need to be agendized.

 

Councilmember Baroldi stated that he would be the second Councilmember to ask that it be agendized.

 

Mayor Pro Tem Carroll directed Staff to do a survey on this property, price range to be between $10,000 and $15,000, to be conducted by WLC as was done at the Hacienda/West site.

 

City Attorney Levin clarified that the direction was to agendize having Mr. Needham do a site plan, a topographical survey and whatever else is needed for that.

 

Councilmember Baroldi confirmed with Mr. Needham that he could make the new buildings match architecturally well with what is already here.

 

Councilmember Vipperman noted that a question was “Why the Council does not just make a decision and move on? He stated that each Councilmember is trying to decide what the best solution is for the Community. 81% of those voting for candidates voted for those who preferred the current site.

Mayor Bergman spoke about the present site’s pros and cons, possible substations and a volunteer crew of residents for the Fire Department. He stated that he preferred the site at Hacienda and West due to the simplicity compared to the present site.

 

Councilmember Baroldi stated that the cost goes down on the current site if extra land is not bought, and the building is cut to a minimum. We have to consider future costs expected from unfunded State Mandates. Safety of the residents is the most important issue.

 

Mayor Pro Tem Carroll explained that he believed the bid from Chief Freeman is legitimate and we could not replace what we have with the County Services cost wise.

 

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

            Mayor Bergman adjourned the Study Session at 10:38 p.m.

 

 

ATTEST:

 

 

_________________________________

RONALD BATES, CITY CLERK