CITY OF LA HABRA HEIGHTS
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING OF THE LA HABRA HEIGHTS
PLANNING COMMISSION
OPENING CEREMONIES
1. CALL MEETING TO ORDER
Chairman Wolfe called a Special Study Session of the La Habra Heights Planning Commission to order at 7:38 p.m. at the Community Center, 1245 North Hacienda Road, La Habra Heights, California.
2. ROLL CALL
Those present: Chairman Robert Wolfe, Commissioners Layne Baroldi, Brent Grebbien, Margarita McCoy. Absent: Vice Chairman Larry Black and Alternate Commissioner Steve Garcia: Also present Community Development Director Sandra Massa-Lavitt, City Engineer Melicher, City Attorney Sandra Levin, Mayor Douglas and Marc Blodgett.
3. FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner McCoy led the flag salute.
4. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF POSTING OF AGENDA FOR MEETING OF
August 9, 2005
Ms. Massa-Lavitt stated the agenda had been posted.
5. ITEMS FROM THE PUBLIC NOT ON THE AGENDA
Chairperson Wolfe stated that they would take Public Comment on items not on the Agenda and save anything regarding the Zoning Ordinance for Item 7.
There were no speakers on items not on the Agenda.
STUDY SESSION
7. ZONING CODE AMENDMENT 2005-01 – ARTICLE 7 – ZONING ORDINANCE
Community Development Director Massa-Lavitt noted that the Staff Report was presented at the last meeting and was continued to this meeting where the people that were concerned about the equestrian section of the Ordinance would be ready to make a presentation.
Jessica
Winship, Cypress Street - noted that on
August 2, 2005 they had a
Community meeting with the equine and animal people; put together a packet and
a powerpoint presentation; there were 52 at the meeting and we spoke to 163
additional residents regarding their input.
Zach Brown commented that this committee is actually a work in progress.
Chairperson Wolfe read off names of people who were relinquishing their time to Mr. Brown.
City Attorney Levin commented that if the Commissioners did receive a packet of information, we would like to have a copy for City records.
Teena Uyeno, Mayapan Road - noted that she has a degree in Animal Science and Husbandry; spoke of distances allowed for horses from fences and structures; Arena distance from a dwelling; number of animals allowed; animals that are considered ŌlargeĶ; children and 4-H.
John Beau, Casalero Drive - spoke on large animals and amount of horses allowed which is a reduction; destroying rural lifestyle; rural is a state of mind; nothing to support this Ordinance; if this article is adopted it would be arbitrary and capricious.
Zach Brown continued with the powerpoint presentation of recommendations. The General Plan encourages Horses and other Animal Husbandry; current number of horses allowed should remain; tightening of restrictions could lower property values; realtors stated reduction could be considerable; needing a permit to keep large animals is also against the spirit of the General Plan; horses are grazing animals and need water all the time to avoid colic; there are many sources of standing water that have nothing to do with horses and is a great source of concern with horse people due to West Nile Virus; apply to everyone in the City, not under the horse article; controlling how many horses may be owned will not fit in some size families; leave setbacks at 35 feet.
Commissioner Baroldi asked what kinds of lots could not avoid a nuisance.
Mr. Brown explained that there are codes concerning nuisances and it doesnÕt necessarily apply to horses.
Commissioner Baroldi asked for clarification that Mr. Brown means that a nuisance could be addressed rather than by a setback.
City Attorney Levin asked if the Committee discussed when next to a vacant lot and you say Ōfrom a habitable structureĶ do you mean already existing or may be built.
Mr. Brown noted that they had discussed it but did not come to a consensus and it can be discussed at a later time.
Ms. Levin clarified that the Committee did not come up with a recommendation for the setback from an empty lot.
Mr. Brown answered that they had not.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that the recommendation states that the stable shall be 35 feet from any habitable structure. Does that mean the stable can be built within the side yard setback?
Mr. Brown answered in the negative. The 35 feet is a health issue. He stated that he did not think they mean that a new stable can be built within the 25-foot setback.
Chairperson Wolfe asked if Mr. Brown considers 15,000 feet as horse property.
Mr. Brown answered affirmatively. He spoke about riding rings for the safety of the horse; he considers this as being a fence, not a structure and should not have any restrictions.
Commissioner McCoy asked what about riding rings that are used for gatherings or horse shows that have loud speakers, is that covered by what you are addressing?
Mr. Brown stated that they have not discussed that as they believe events are handled at The Park and they have to pay for permits before the event. If someone abuses a riding ring and causes a nuisance then action is appropriate to be taken as a nuisance, not a horse. We intend to stay good neighbors.
Commissioner Baroldi asked when you speak of a riding ring or dressage ring is there a definition or size we should know.
Mr. Brown explained that dressage is a fence with a specific design. It is rectangular and has a very specific length and width. A riding ring does not have those requirements. Some people might want a ring the size of the one at The Park, but that would not be possible or practical. Mr. Brown stated that Environmental Management should not just single out horses; there are already regulations in effect to cover Health and Safety; restrictions on boats donÕt belong in this section on horses; horse trailers are imperative; trailers should not be offsite; trash enclosures are not just for horse people; air conditioning, compressors and pumps do not belong under horses.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that part of his job is to make sure the whole Community is protected. He noted that he does believe that a big percentage of the horse community take very good care of their horses, but there are a few that do not and that is why we have performance standards. If you can prove that even if you donÕt follow every rule and you can show that you are still a good neighbor you can get a modification. He noted that what is a nuisance is different for different people. Broken down items sitting around and parcels that are not taken care of bring down values of property. He stated that he doesnÕt think this section belongs in horses, but he thinks it does belong in the Ordinances.
Mr. Brown explained that horse trailers are important to the safety of the horses.
Chairperson Wolfe explained that this quote is actually from 7.11.50 in Setback and Yard Use Standards and completely separate from the Animal Keeping Standards.
Mr. Brown stated that they are asking that the same standards for a motor home may not be appropriate for a horse trailer.
Commissioner Grebbien stated that the General Plan mentions preserving our lifestyle. He commented that he sees many situations with placement of horses on lots. He noted that he is interested in knowing where the policies are that deal with boats, motorhomes, trailers, horses and all of it. He commented that he was rather surprised at the level that we think we need to regulate each other. He stated that with this process he hopes that we are able to be consistent with the General Plan and come up with guidelines that make sense.
City Engineer Melicher stated that he had been looking for a proposal on where horse trailers should be kept and a discussion on what would be considered acceptable.
Mr. Brown explained that their discussion was only on the need to have the trailers on the property in case of an emergency.
City Attorney Levin repeated what Faith Grimm noted. Ms. Levin repeated that Faith Grimm stated that the proposal is that the horse trailers should be governed the same as automobiles, meaning that they have to be parked on a hard surface and the new proposed code would require that they be screened from view.
Mr. Brown concluded his powerpoint presentation and stated he is looking forward to working with the Planning Commission.
Kathy Sauble, stated that the Emergency Preparedness Committee has encouraged the residents, backed by every City Manager, Sheriffs Department and Fire Chief that the horse Community be very vigilant in maintaining their trailers on their property so they have easy access in the event of an emergency. In case of a fire they would have to move the horses early on; safety issue; looked at individually.
Commissioner McCoy asked if she would be willing to accept this as it is and go for a modification when needed.
Ms. Sauble stated that whatever the Commission decides make sure that everyone can have the same opportunity to be able to evacuate in the same amount of time; Fire Dept. must take care of the fire.
Commissioner McCoy noted that you cannot address every situation in an Ordinance and when a person has a difficult situation they need a modification for an exception. We know every lot is different.
Ms. Sauble noted that safety issues need to be addressed so that it cannot be misunderstood.
Norm Zezula, talked about keeping our rural lifestyle whether we have horses or not; easier for Staff to limit number of horses than to deal with those who do not take care of their horse property; General Plan encourages animal keeping; NPDES requirements on pollution; Staff members do not live in out City and do not understand our Community; strong outcry from Community; modifications on Ordinances.
Teena Uyeno, commented that the introduction to the update of the Municipal Code stated that they are discretionary (whoÕs judgement); parties in horse arenas; Los Angeles animal requirements, where found?
Chairperson Wolfe stated that he would find out and get back to her.
Commissioner Baroldi asked Staff about water impounding and a health and safety issue for the horses. He stated that in exhibit 7-2 it shows the impoundment of the water in the animal use area in an earthen berm. Why wouldnÕt that first ¾ inch of runoff be collected in an area away from the animals where the animalÕs safety would be protected.
Mayor Douglas commented that this first draft made a very simplistic solution to the NPDES restrictions to keep any pollution from running into streams or waterways. There are other ways to control runoff. The setback distance has nothing to do with NPDES.
City Attorney Levin noted that none of LA CountyÕs zoning is binding on us. She noted that the zoning section that deals with the setback is 22.24.120. If there is a health code requirement, that potentially could be binding on us. It will depend on their code enforcement determinations and standards. She also noted that generally these issues are policy choices. There are many ways to comply with NPDES requirements. Staff would like to have direction from the Commission as to what kind of policies you would like to see. We do need to meet those standards in some way that complies.
Richard Bernstein, Leucadia, joined mounted VOPs; on call and need horse trailers.
Beth Salisbury noted that a horse will not drink dirty water; standing water should not be an issue; she has to know how much water they are consuming; West Nile Virus; Horse trailer important; ability to have horses needs to pass on with the property for eternity.
Judy Brown, West Road, spoke on expensive show horses and cleanliness for them and their area; no polluted runoff from her property; restrictions on people that need them affect everyone.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that the Commission knows that those that are here tonight are very concerned with their horses. A lot of regulations are to govern people that are not that caring.
Michael Falcoun, El Terazza Drive, spoke on setbacks.
Julie Ellis, Sharpless Ct. spoke on not limiting horses; other horse areas; horses are herd animals and have to be managed well; horse trailers; keep current zoning that we have; flexibility; size of arenas; horse trailers.
Chairperson Wolfe closed the Public Comment and returned the meeting to the Commission.
City Attorney Levin explained that there will be Public Comment at the Study Session and there will be a Public Hearing at a future meeting for another chance to comment at that time.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that he would like to see the number of horses stay at one for every 5,000 feet.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that in order to follow the General Plan and encourage animal husbandry, he would agree with the one horse for every 5,000 feet.
Commissioner McCoy noted that she was worried about Health and Safety issues. She noted that she asked Commissioner Baroldi if there are real concerns about water and health when a lot of animals are kept on too constrained an area. He assured me that there are not real concerns. She stated that satisfied her, so she agrees with Wolfe and Baroldi.
Commissioner Baroldi explained that there are ways to control our runoff even with eight horses or cows per acre.
City Attorney Levin explained that there are a lot of different ways to meet the requirements. Moving the waste off of the premises is certainly one of the ways. Waste control measures have to be somewhere in the Code, but they donÕt have to be the limiting of the number of horses, so we need direction as to what approach you want us to take. We hear a consensus to have one large animal for every 5,000 feet. Then we can get back to you as to what other requirements you need to impose in order to meet your permit obligations, such as removing waste from the site X times a week to demonstrate to other agencies that as a City we are taking our obligations seriously.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that he doesnÕt see the people here objecting to frequent removal of waste to avoid any pollution runoff.
Chairperson Wolfe stated his concern on how we control the number of large animals if we have more acreage allowing us to have more animals and they are all congregated in one area.
Commissioner Grebbien asked if a case occurs when someone has three acres and we have however many animals are allowed on three acres and the animals were all kept in a small area, is there another way to pursue the problem such as County Health inspection that might help.
Community Development Director Massa-Lavitt explained that the limit of horses under the current code is eight, not per acre, but no matter how large the property is. We donÕt go out and count how many a person has. If we receive a complaint on a health issue we would call LA County Health. They would investigate and make a report.
Commissioner Grebbien commented that we have heard one horse per 5,000 feet. He stated that he hasnÕt investigated this on his own. What do some of the other horse areas use as a rule?
Mr. Blodgett noted that when they first set the standard of two horses per acre we looked at a number of Ordinances throughout Southern California. We did not see a general number and we decided to go on the conservative side and use Standards Modifications. The Public Comments have been very enlightening. Zoning Ordinances are written for those who donÕt care and donÕt want to be good neighbors.
Commissioner McCoy noted that the eight horses per property has not caused any complaints.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt answered that there had been no complaints of anyone having too many horses.
Commissioner McCoy asked if there has been anyone come in to ask for more horses.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt stated that no one asked.
Commissioner McCoy noted that maybe we should keep that restriction that seems to be working.
Mayor Douglas commented that as he reads the existing code it is an absolute one and this has now been put in as a Development Standard as a discretionary limit, so if you have more property and can show the Commission that you can have more, you can ask for permission to have a larger number of horses.
Commissioner Grebbien noted that as long as the horse people are not getting any complaints they are doing much better than a lot of other activities.
Mr. Blodgett listed what the requirements were in various other areas for the number of horses.
Chairperson Wolfe read the current code 93.76 and found no total limit, only one over nine months of age for every 5,000 square feet.
Commissioner Grebbien questioned the nine-month age limit for young horses. They could have any number of the young?
Ms. Massa-Lavitt commented that she was not sure that was the appropriate age for large animals. It might be older. We will have to take a look at that.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that there are a lot of policy issues to be made in this Article and we probably would want to tackle this in a session.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that they should go through Section 7.10.30 Performance Standards for Animal Keeping Development. He asked if any of the Commission has a problem with anything in the introductory paragraph. He stated that he did not think the Equestrian Community has any problems with that paragraph.
No problems were noted.
Chairperson Wolfe continued with Maintenance of Community Character Views and Privacy. Any concerns with this paragraph?
Commissioner Baroldi noted that it was consistent with the General Plan.
Chairperson Wolfe continued with letter B. Portable Facilities – A construction placement and use of portable facilities including but not limited to fences, structures used for the storage of animal feed and animal shelters must be in conformance with all of the provisions of this chapter. He stated that we obviously will have to get to that.
Commissioner McCoy asked if Portable Facilities includes trailers.
Commissioner Baroldi stated that he would not think so.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that he would think of it more as a fence or pen.
Chairperson Wolfe continued with Water Runoff. All animal keeping facilities must be designed in a manner so that water runoff is contained and disposed of and does not contribute to the pollution of local ground water or the flooding of adjacent properties.
Commissioner Baroldi stated that this seems to be a provision for the design of a new structure. Would it be appropriate to clarify that in this section, or do we want to have this impact on existing facilities.
Chairperson Wolfe commented that we wouldnÕt want any existing property to contribute to polluting the ground water or flooding adjacent properties.
City Attorney Levin explained that this portion of the Code is your Zoning Code and generally speaking it applies prospectively to people who want to make changes or modifications to their property or build new structures and is implemented through an application or approval process. It is not the portion of your code that imposes Health and Safety restrictions more immediately. Those police powers are exercised through a different portion of your code that creates nuisance definitions and imposes different kinds of obligations for Health and Safety reasons.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that a definition is needed as to what would suffice as pollution control mechanisms.
Chairperson Wolfe turned to Item D. Open Water Containers with Standing Water – Open water containers must be designed so that they do not become breeding grounds for mosquito larvae. Standing water is not permitted.
Commissioner McCoy noted that from what she understands the horses take care of their water and it does not become standing water. Standing water should not be permitted. She thought that it probably should be kept in the horse section.
Consultant Blodgett noted that it could be reworded to show we are not talking about equestrian drinking water, but water that just stands around.
City Attorney Levin defined Ōstanding waterĶ as water not in use for more than 48 hours. We donÕt want water standing around in buckets or pools unused for long periods.
Mayor Douglas commented that standing water is dealt with through police powers and will be addressed in our police powers section.
Chairperson Wolfe continued with letter E. Feed Storage – Feed storage facilities must be designed and constructed of materials to ensure that such feed is not attractive to insects, rodents and other vectors.
Chairperson Wolfe continued to table 7.5. What is the issue with respect to sheep, goats, pigs and hogs? We only have one for every 20,000 feet. What is the CommissionÕs pleasure in that regard. He asked what it is currently. He noted that the code is 93.76.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that the existing code states one over six months of age for each 20,000 square feet of lot area.
Chairperson Wolfe commented that there is some rational basis for it.
Marc Blodgett answered that there is plenty of reason for 20,000 square feet for pigs and hogs, and sheep and goats make a lot of noise. They are more like livestock.
City Engineer Melicher asked if weight should be considered.
Mr. Blodgett stated the committee did consider that. It is a policy issue. We are trying to cover a whole broad spectrum of situations with one simple regulation, hoping that we provide the flexibility for those exceptions.
Commissioner McCoy noted that maybe you should change the title to Space Requirements for Animals. They are not Large Animals. She also stated that pigs and hogs in the dictionary are synonymous.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt commented that perhaps the people that are interested in these animals might come back at a future meeting and express the appropriate sizes and whether or not a pygmy goat should be treated differently than a standard goat and they can do something similar to what the horse people did tonight about the horses.
Commissioner Grebbien explained that just as horses when well managed are not a problem, the same can be said about other animals. He stated that most people no longer feed their pigs slop, but they are fed grain. I think we should come up with a different number of small animals and show that we are being consistent with the General Plan and are encouraging taking care of and having animals in this city.
Commissioner McCoy asked if there was some reason you didnÕt treat the other animals just as it is currently.
Mr. Blodgett stated that he didnÕt see any reason to change the present code. He stated that Ms. Massa-Lavitt made a good suggestion that we should hear from the 4H and Future Farmers.
Commissioner Baroldi stated that the current code for sheep and goats is one for every 5,000 square feet. We should look into the intent for treating pigs differently. Was there a Health and Safety issue?
Mr. Blodgett commented that probably it was due to the LA County Code and the manner in which you raise hogs.
Mayor Douglas stated that he seemed to remember comment that the floor for hogs has to be impervious. It would be good to hear from members of the Community.
Chairperson Wolfe agreed that we need to look at the issue. LetÕs look at B. Horse Stables – Horse Stables are permitted only on lots that have a minimum of 20,000 square feet. Is there any comment or concern about changing that figure?
City Attorney Levin explained that the figure of 20,000 appears in 7.10.40 A, B and D. The Community recommendation was to reduce the figure to 15,000 in all three places. She noted that just what structures it covers is more fully discussed in subsection D.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that to be consistent this would also have to be changed to 15,000.
Commissioner McCoy stated that it concerns her that one lady said horses were herd animals and shouldnÕt be just one alone, so everyone would have to have at least two.
Mr. Blodgett noted that if we can deal with environmental issues in other ways, 15,000 square feet should be adequate.
Chairperson Wolfe asked that the Commission think about changing the 20,000 square feet to 15,000. He stated that next issue is that the stable should be located at 50 feet from any street, lot line or habitable structure. Good points have been made that by using 50 feet you are boxing people in and should use the setback requirements of a required yard.
Commissioner Grebbien noted that he thinks even that is prohibitive, especially on a 15,000 square foot lot.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that if you buy that size lot you are going to have problems. We will revisit the issue later. He recessed for a tape change.
Chairperson Wolfe continued to decide when the next meeting will be.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt noted that the next Planning Commission Meeting will be August 23, 2005.
The consensus of the Commission was to hold a Public Hearing on Tuesday, August 30, 2005. They also picked the date for a Continued Public Hearing on Tuesday, September 6, 2005.
Commissioner McCoy moved to adjourn the meeting at 10:47 p.m. to the meeting of August 23, 2005. Seconded by Commissioner Baroldi. Vote: 5 – 0.
ADJOURNMENT
Larry Black, Vice Chairman
ATTEST:
Sandra Massa-Lavitt, Community Development Director