CITY OF LA HABRA HEIGHTS
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING OF THE LA HABRA HEIGHTS
PLANNING COMMISSION
OPENING CEREMONIES
1. CALL MEETING TO ORDER
Chairman Wolfe called a meeting of the La Habra Heights Planning Commission to order at 7:10 p.m. at the Community Center, 1245 North Hacienda Road, La Habra Heights, California.
2. ROLL CALL
Those present: Chairman Robert Wolfe, Vice Chairman Larry Black, Commissioners Layne Baroldi, Brent Grebbien, and Margarita McCoy. Also present; Community Development Director Sandra Massa-Lavitt, Planning Technician Barbara Doppieri, City Engineer Craig Melicher, City Attorney Sandra Levin, Mayor Bruce Douglas and Consultant Marc Blodgett.
3. FLAG SALUTE
Alternate Commissioner Garcia led the flag salute.
4. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF POSTING OF AGENDA FOR MEETING OF
August 30, 2005
Ms. Massa-Lavitt stated the agenda had been posted.
5. ITEMS FROM THE PUBLIC ON THE AGENDA
Richard Kruse, La Habra, spoke of residents concern with Ordinance changes regarding livestock; his opinion of why many people moved here; raising animals important to children.
Amanda Thomason, Las Palomas, gave an overview of the 4-H; 51 members in La Habra Heights; listed the projects they get involved in; keep Ordinances as they are.
Dr. Nolton Pattio, Veterinarian, noted that the average horse produces 45-50 pounds of manure per day; not likely to contaminate water as their waste is organic; horses seem to be a way of life here; horse operations are kept clean here.
Chairperson Wolfe asked what is a manageable number of horses for a family on an acre.
Dr. Pattio explained it depends on how you manage and where; in his opinion easily 5 or 6 animals; would have to consider the system for waste control.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that we have to decide a number for how many horses people may have. We need Ordinances for people who donŐt care.
Dr. Pattio noted that Dr. Guerra has 16 horses on 2 acres. It seems pretty well kept. Most people donŐt have as many. With a good management system you could probably have 5-8 on an acre.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that they are dealing with two issues, water quality and nuisance issues. Do you see any problem with contamination of surface water?
Dr. Pattio stated that he hasnŐt heard of any such cases.
Vice Chairperson Black asked if the topography of the area where the horses are would affect the number of horses that could be taken care of.
Dr. Pattio noted that as long as a horse can stand on it makes it all right, but of course the flatter the land the better. People usually make allowance for that.
Commissioner McCoy asked Dr. Pattio if he were writing an Ordinance for this, understanding that horses are important to La Habra Heights, what provisions should be made to insure a healthy balance for horses and their owners.
Dr. Pattio answered that he would do some sort of analysis that would show what risks there are and see what impact they actually have here; would see if impact issues, such as water contamination and overpopulation of horses per unit of land, really are issues; look at what type of horses are here; no concentrated animal feeding operations; rules for livestock production schemes would not apply; would try to do the best thing for everyone; determine the facts.
Jerrett Edlund, Pueblo Crest, spoke about his and his brothers experiences in 4-H and how beneficial it was.
Karissa Lystrup, Avocado Crest, noted that they moved here to raise farm animals; space restriction would hurt our rural country living; we have learned responsibility and work ethics by keeping goats; it has also taught us to perform Community Service; research has shown that a goat requires 200 square feet of outside space and 15 square feet of inside housing and a goat would only have about 4 pounds of solid waste. DonŐt change the space regulations.
Zack Brown, West Road, spoke that the horse people were astonished that there were negative changes in the new Draft Ordinances; the animal people were impressed with the invitation from the Commission to come back with recommendations and comments regarding these guidelines and prospective Ordinances; in 8 or 9 days 52 people got together for several hours to review the proposed changes in the Code to come up with recommendations for the Commission; numerous issues, some consensus; not an issue of how many horses are allowed, but rather how they are managed; what are best practices of management; suggested that some come together as a Committee to do this.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that this code calls for Standards Modifications. If this was enacted with a requirement to follow a practice of management, have you even discussed such a thing.
Zack Brown answered that the first concern was the change to a certain number when this had not been a fact in years and they had not had a complaint in that time. Standards Modifications are a fact of life everywhere. There is a standard now and nobody has come in to get a modification. Why change it?
Commissioner Baroldi stated that we donŐt have to start from scratch on a management system. Have we looked at the NPDES or other areas that already have rules.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt noted that we have a copy of Equestrian Related Water Best Quality Management Practices downloaded from the web. We will make this available to whoever wants a copy of it. You can use it to develop your own presentation of how you would like the City to react to horses.
City Attorney Levin noted that you can get it from the San Diego County website at www.sdcounty.ca.gov.
John Beau, Casalero Drive, spoke on the Orange County Horse Ordinance limit of 1 horse for every 5000 square feet; for more you may be able to get a permit; juvenile horses are considered until they are 24 months; two juveniles are the same as one horse; if we are to consider the clean water act, we need to know where the ground water is and how deep from the surface; if there is a bacterial problem we should have measurements that show what it is.
Faith Grimm, Las Palomas, spoke that in her opinion if you want more than 8 horses per acre a Standards Modification should be all right. Orange County Acres has an 8 horses per acre Code and you can go up to 12 with a variance. They have no setbacks for arenas, turnouts and pens, but where they actually live (stalls) the setback has to be 25 feet from property lines; Power point presentation on Grandfathered structures; changing rules on construction of horse facilities.
Phil Pacia, La Habra, Agricultural instructor at Sonora High School noted that he learned how to care for animals in La Habra Heights and his passion for a career in Agriculture education started here; La Habra Heights is important for a place to learn Animal Husbandry. He always thought if there is a problem with care of animals you call Animal Control.
Julie Ellis, Sharpless Ct., noted that she has done much research and has found that horses do not affect the ground water. Because horse manure is so dry, most of the minerals leach into the air before they ever get into the soil.
Norm Zezula, Canonita Drive, spoke that we donŐt really seem to know if there really is a problem; more horses in the 50Ős and 60Ős than now;
Bruce Douglas, noted that he liked Zack BrownŐs idea for a sub-committee to look at any issues where there are problems; everyone has a right to live here and they have their own reasons. Let the equestrians be brought in to look at a problem and look at the best management practices. NPDES is very clear that we have no right to dump waste into ravines and drainage courses of any kind. If we follow good practices we do not have a problem. Mr. Douglas noted that there has been criticism that non-residents have drafted this code. It makes no difference, whoever drafts it, there will be criticism. Codes are laws. It is tough to write laws and the persons who worked on the codes have spent unbelievable time and effort on these codes. He noted that we have study sessions and Public Hearings so residents can have input. He commented that the Commission has done a wonderful job and he appreciates the residentŐs helpful input.
STUDY SESSION/CONSENT CALENDAR
6. Zoning Code Amendment 2005-01 – Article 7 – Zoning Ordinance
Chairperson Wolfe asked the Commission if they want to start at 7.10 or start at 7.1.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that we had already started at 7.10 and got through 7.10.40 at the last meeting.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that they can start with Table 7-5. He commented that last time they talked about having one horse over nine months of age for every 5000 square feet.
Commissioner Grebbien asked for clarification that it means eight to an acre.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that is correct.
Commissioner Grebbien asked if someone who wants more would be able to ask for a Standards Modification.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that he thought this is going to be in 7.10.50. Chairperson Wolfe stated that he has a concern if a person has three acres then he can have 24 horses, can they all be in the same area?
Commissioner McCoy commented that she thought staff had informed them that there was an overall limit of eight horses per property.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that our present Code said eight horses per acre and there was no Standards Modification.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt stated that there is no overall limit.
Commissioner McCoy asked if it would not be sensible to place a maximum limit of horses on a property and if they have more acreage and want more horses they come in and ask for a Standards Modification.
Vice Chairperson Black stated that he didnŐt know if they are talking about that or about setbacks. He stated that he doesnŐt want to limit the total number of horses on a property.
Commissioner McCoy commented that setbacks donŐt solve everything.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that due to our irregular properties a limit would depend on each case. The best way to handle that is with a Standards Modification.
Chairperson Wolfe suggested 1 horse per 5000 square feet up to 10 horses and after 10 you need a large animal keeping permit using the Standards Modification.
Commissioner Grebbien agreed.
Commissioner Baroldi agreed and noted that the findings should be reasonable.
Vice Chairperson Black agreed and asked that it be kept balanced.
Commissioner McCoy asked if the Commission was agreeing to the suggestion of a limit of 10 horses per property with more allowed with Standards Modification?
Vice Chairperson Black asked how many 2-acre or more parcels we have. He stated that he is looking for as much fairness as is possible.
Ms. Massa-Lavitt answered a ballpark figure of Ňa lotÓ.
Chairperson Wolfe commented that Table 7-13 mentions that you can get a Standards Modification for number of animals. On page 7-78 it mentions the findings for a Standards Modification and the ones that would fit are that the request for Standards Modification will not impair the neighborsŐ privacy or the enjoyment of their property. It should be easy to see those findings. If you donŐt like the Community Development Directors decision you can appeal to the Planning Commission and if you want, go on to the City Council. This allows flexibility.
Commissioner Grebbien stated that it is not drastically different from what the horse owners are now doing.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that this encourages animal husbandry because it allows for the opportunity to expand the opportunities we have now. He stated that his proposal was Ňone per 5,000 feet with a limit of 10 per parcel.Ó
Mayor Douglas noted that if you own the parcel next door but donŐt want to merge them you can still, with a permit, build stables on it or a sport court or batting cage.
Chairperson Wolfe suggested that they keep the minimum parcel at 15,000 feet or use the Standards Modification.
Chairperson Wolfe next talked about Sheep, Goats and pigs and hogs.
Commissioner McCoy noted that sheep, goats, pigs and hogs are not large animals. They should be a different category. She stated that she thinks the limits on these animals should be more generous than on horses and cattle.
Vice Chairman Black noted that the present code has sheep and goats at one for 5,000 feet and pigs and hogs are at one per 20,000 feet. The new code combines them for one per 20,000 feet.
Mr. Blodgett suggested that we amend the new code to read more like the present code and make the distinction between sheep and goats and pigs and hogs. We can divide the animals into three categories; large animals, sheep and goats and pigs and hogs. With the swine we would have the one for 20,000 ft. and the other two categories at one per 5,000 ft.
The consensus was that the following limit should apply:
8 – horses
8 – sheep and goats
2 – pigs or hogs
The limits are cumulative so that the maximum number of animals possible in these categories is 18.
Vice Chairperson Black stated that we should delineate the BMPs and would like some comparative data on the subject supplied.
Mr. Blodgett noted that they had done extensive research on this. We opted to be very conservative. We have added housekeeping and management practices.
Mayor Douglas noted that they didnŐt see many BMPs for hogs. He asked if the Commission agreed that the smaller animals are modifiable also.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that in his opinion it should be available.
Vice Chairperson Black also agreed.
Mayor Douglas asked if they are thinking of a cumulative of 8 animals or 8 horses and 8 goats and 2 pigs on an acre with Best Management Practices (BMPs) and without the modification.
Vice Chairperson Black noted that sheep and goats seem to be cumulative.
Chairperson Wolfe answered that the way the Code reads, you can have 8 horses and 8 goats and 2 pigs on a one-acre parcel with BMPs and parcel maximums without Standards Modification.
Stables:
Allowed on a lot of a minimum 15,000 square feet. Shall be located 50 feet from street, lot line or habitable structure.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that he thought that it is like any other structure and should have the setbacks of 35 feet in front and 25 feet on the sides.
Commissioner McCoy did not agree. She felt the setback from a residence should be 50 feet.
Commissioner Grebbien noted that some places do not even require setbacks. If you use such big setbacks, you can eat up the space until there is no place to keep animals. This does not encourage animal husbandry.
Mayor Douglas further explained that the Ordinance is speaking of new developments and primarily in one-acre lots. There are certain ordinances that implement the General Plan goals.
Commissioner Grebbien noted that if we have come to the decision that 15,000 square feet is the minimum size parcel that can have an animal on, then we should have policies that donŐt contradict it in some way.
Chairperson Wolfe stated that we have the Standards Modification. The person with a horse should be treated the same as anyone else who wants a Standards Modification.
Commissioner Baroldi commented that our policies should reflect very closely what is out there. If we came up with a policy that is drastically different, we would have to have some real compelling reason.
Mayor Douglas noted that we are not making policies at this point. The policies have been adopted by the General Plan adoption. He stated that land use element policy 56 talks about small lots. It says you can develop those, but only if it is possible to do so in a manner that is consistent with setback and other development standards of this plan in the Zoning Ordinance. There shall be no special dispensation for a small lot.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that Page 7-28 B and D can be considered together for saving time as horse stables and pens and enclosures are basically the same. He stated his opinion that the consensus was accessory structures should be 25 feet from the property line and there are two habitable structures, your neighborŐs and your own, also if you want your horse structure closer to your own home you should be able to have it so and there should be a 25-foot sideyard setback and a 35-foot front yard setback.
Commissioner Baroldi stated that for number C, if the horses are not in a concentrated area he wouldnŐt want to see the fence right on the property line, but he would accept a riding area closer than 25-feet to the property line.
Chairperson Wolfe commented that regardless of what the use is it should be 25-feet unless you have a Standards Modification.
Commissioner Grebbien commented that having rules that are contradictory to what 80% of the people out there are doing, I have a problem with that. He stated that he thought for pens and animal use we should have a 5 or 10-foot setback. We could have language concerning if there is a privacy issue we could do some screening.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that we would do that by a Standards Modification. He stated that he was concerned about the neighborŐs privacy.
Commissioner McCoy explained that some of the lots that are non-conforming have been here for many years and our City is much more crowded than when they were built. We need those setbacks.
Vice Chairperson Black noted that we are trying to maintain fairness as much as possible. We need to have the setbacks and use Standards Modifications.
Alternate Commissioner Garcia noted that there are cases when the horses would not need a setback from the property line.
Commissioner Grebbien noted that animals require a lot of space and since they do, that alone requires a relaxation of the setback requirement for that use.
Commissioner McCoy explained that when she was speaking about the need for setbacks she was speaking about structures, not fences.
Commissioner Baroldi noted that he thought it should be allowed for fences to be closer to the property line so the animals can have that space to move around in.
After considerable consideration and discussion the Commission arrived at a consensus on B., and D.
Chairperson Wolfe reviewed the consensus on the following:
B. Horses stables are only permitted on lots that have a minimum area of 15,000 square feet.
The stables shall not be permitted in the required yard.
D. Pens and enclosures are permitted on lots that have a minimum area of 15,000 square feet.
Pens and enclosures shall not be permitted in the required yard.
Item C. was discussed without a consensus.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that they will go over B, C, and D again and the Commissioners need to consider them more in preparation for the next meeting.
Chairperson Wolfe noted that they would continue with Article 7 at the next meeting.
ADJOURNMENT
Vice Chairman Black moved to adjourn the meeting at 10:10 p.m. to the meeting of September 6, 2005 at 7:00 p.m.. Seconded by Chairperson Wolfe. Vote 5-0
Larry Black, Vice Chairman
ATTEST:
Sandra Massa-Lavitt, Community Development Director